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Jim If you want to get your wine from 1855.com and plan to get it by storming the Bastille take a guillotine with you. They may get the message if you arrive on their doorstep as a Saint-Just lookalike. More...
20 Oct 2008, 14:08
joost van gelder, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 52
The 1855 saga continues
I've received the strangest email from 1855 after bombarding them with emails asking them when my bordeaux 2005 would be delivered;
Dear Client,
'Our shipping company has informed us of some changes in the VAT and custom rules for our deliveries of wine in the UK.
As a consequence, we have to adapt our system according to these new procedures, which means we are going to have a 2 to 3 delay in your delivery.
We apologize for this.
Your wines have been returned to our platform and are kept in our air co cellars until we can ship them again.
in order to compensate for the delay, we are offering you a 30,00 discount on your next order.
Remaining at your disposal for any further information, and with all our apologies,
Sincerely,'
is this true ?
is anyone come across this email ?
is my situation worse since I've stopped ordering wine from 1855 since the 2005 campaign ?
does anyone have a good contact at 1855 ?
thanks a lot for any insight or advice to deal with this.......
#2
20 Oct 2008, 19:17
Jim C, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 39
Can't say I've come across these problems. I last had a delivery from them about 3 weeks ago - an incomplete order, but something. There was no hint of a change in regulations at that point. I'm still chasing 2 more cases so if you do manage to get a reliable contact with 1855.com please share it!
Bon chance
jim
#3
20 Oct 2008, 21:03
Jancis Robinson, Mission Control 2
Administrator Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 160
Quote:
we are going to have a 2 to 3 delay in your delivery
2 to 3 days, weeks, months or years?
#4
21 Oct 2008, 13:38
joost van gelder, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 52
I've received this ominous email 2 weeks ago without clear info on how much the delay would be.... it makes me wonder if 1855 is just making these things up to buy time...financial trouble ?
any advice on how to proceed ?
thanks
#5
21 Oct 2008, 15:58
Andrew Matthews, norwich
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
1. You could ring them up and speak to someone
2. I note your concern that they may have financial problems. The website claims that the company has a capital base of 2,000,000euros, although it is difficult to know the veracity of that claim without running a check in the French companies register to check their accounts.
3. I see that there are some comments on the web of other dissatisfied customers. Dissatisfied customers does not necessarily indicate "financial trouble" and without going to their address in Paris (bit of a trek) you either trust them and hang on or get a lawyer to contact them and hope that produces a result.
#6
24 Oct 2008, 14:23
Iain Lo, Singapore
Junior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8
I only recd my 2004 Vieux Chateau Certan in July this year, so they delivered eventually (to NL address) !
#7
24 Oct 2008, 16:47
Patience Waddilove, Shaftesbury
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 303
Ring up 1855???
Apologies, Andrew, but -- ho ho ho ho ho.... As some know, I spent DAYS AND DAYS trying to get through, and that was for my 2004 en primeur.
They took they phone off the hook. It was off for about a month. I tried 2-3 times a day for the entire time.
In the end, they delivered. One of the wines showed up 6 months after the others. At least it showed up.
Never, ever again. Best of luck with the 2005s.
#8
26 Oct 2008, 10:51
joost van gelder, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 52
I tried calling them all week and the week before and can whistle their waiting tune by now.... but no answer. even no answers on emails, it just dawns on me that they might be the first to have fallen into trouble with relation to the credit crunch...
Does anyone have other ways of contacting them ? or has an email adress of the MD ?
thanks
#9
26 Oct 2008, 11:56
Tok Hong Ling, Singapore
Junior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6
Is this 1855 from the website www.wine1855.com/?
#10
26 Oct 2008, 12:36
Nigel Groundwater, Hampton, Middlesex
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tok Hong Ling, Singapore
Is this 1855 from the website www.wine1855.com/?
Unless it is part of this organisation www.1855.com/ No. But it would be worth establishing the facts directly with the US based phone, fax and email numbers provided.
Apart from offering to store purchased wines in France any relationship is not immediately obvious from comparing the websites but there is a chance they are related.
If they are it would seem odd to present so differently since extra costs would be incurred in producing different sites etc.
My guess is 'not related' but some checks should be made.
26 Oct 2008, 13:55
Michael Ferrier, Colchester
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 33
I don't think that 1855's problems are a result of the credit crunch, but go back much further. The share price has fallen some 87% this year (most of which was by April). The company had a negative net worth as at the date of the last accounts which I have seen (30 June 2007) of approx 1.4 million euros; negative tangible net worth appeared to be much larger.
Perversely the credit crunch may help them to buy in wines more cheaply than they sold them.
I have no direct knowledge of this company and I base my opinion on the numbers, the share price and thirty years experience of corporate banking.
Operational difficulties are frequently used as a smokescreen for financial difficulties.
#12
26 Oct 2008, 21:22
jonathan points, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 43
Joost, I suggest that you try phoning +33 (0) 1 42 61 64 55 as this sometimes got me through to an "operative", whereas the main number is hopeless. Ask for Thomas Lepoutre. He has helped me out, to a certain extent.
Make it plain that you are very anxious about your wine and demand immediate delivery. The louder and more threateningly you shout the better your chance of getting your wine.
I have warned previously on this forum of their weak financial position - which was parlous even before the credit crisis - something that is clear from a cursory analysis of their publicly available accounts - and have related my own very disappointing service from them. A charitable interpretation is that they are just a shambles, the less charitable ........
#13
26 Oct 2008, 21:28
jonathan points, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 43
In the time it took me to type out my last posting on this thread another forum member has submitted his own anlaysis of the financial situation of 1855.com. I quite agree with what was written and would add that I have been an investment manager for 25 years. This is the third time the finances of 1855.com have been discussed on this site in a year (from memory).
#14
27 Oct 2008, 09:34
Andrew Matthews, norwich
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
As someone who for 25 years has dealt with creditors not being paid (or people who have paid for goods and not received them) the old rule that he who shouts loudest and most threateningly (in legal terms) is more then likely to get the result they want.
The problem with 1855.com is that (I believe) it is incorporated in France although one thread refers to a US trading office so I am slightluy confused never having dealt with them myself and not having looked at their accounts. I have no idea of the buyers' remedies under French law but an aggressive lawyers letter may do the trick.
Another point. has anyone tried speaking with the negociants/agents who supply 1855 to find out where the wine actually is? That may not be easy but there again the problem may not have an easy solution.
#15
27 Oct 2008, 10:22
jonathan points, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 43
As I understand from taking legal advice from a French lawyer, who I made it known to www.1855.com
I was consulting one does have remedies.
If it can be shown that you have a clear contract with 1855 which states when your wine will be delivered, as all their customers should have, given it works on a standardised basis, you can sue for breach of it and claim damages. The problem is of course that if the wine you bought en primeur has increased in value (as was the case in 2005)you may well not get the full market value.
Before suing you can ask a lawyer to issue a letter which in effect demands that 1855 reveals the whereabouts of your wine if it has not been delivered after the contracted delivery date.
But I think as Andrew has said already, before going to the expense of hiring a lawyer, shout as loud and threateningly as you can and demand immediate action - tell them otherwise you will sue or publicise their poor behaviour on wine web sites.
Don't however think that all will be OK in the end if you do nothing now. 1855.com is in financial difficulty - if you had shares in them and wished to sell the current bid is €0.16.In December 2006 you could have sold at €4.20.
The reason for this huge drop (most of whcih took place before the credit crisis) is that professional invesotrs have analysed the published accounts of 1855 and are scared that it has lost so much money in the last two years - to the point where it is now close to being bust.
#16
27 Oct 2008, 11:51
Jancis Robinson, Mission Control 2
Administrator Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 160
Thank you all, gentlemen, for your collective and undoubted expertise.
My sympathies and tightly crossed fingers to all those who wait.
#17
27 Oct 2008, 17:47
Andrew Matthews, norwich
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
Joost
Well, you asked how to proceed and having read the helpful financial analysis from Michael my view is that there is about a more than 50% chance you won't see your wine or your money back. I may be completely wrong but the signs are not good at all.
I don't know how much you are into them for but I suggest you get hold of Jonathan's French lawyer and get him to contact them pretty fast. The longer you wait the less chance you have of any success. You will have to take a view of whether paying a lawyer might ultimately be throwing good money after bad.
Whatever you do I would urge you to act quickly.
Good luck
#18
27 Oct 2008, 18:54
Nigel Groundwater, Hampton, Middlesex
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 299
Joost, if you paid by credit card and if you have not already done so I would contact the card company immediately by phone and in writing setting out the original contract and your problems having it honoured. The amount of money involved seems likely to qualify under the relevant legisaltion.
There may be issues raised concerning the fact that it was a foreign purchase made over 2 years ago but there is relevant legislation and you may find assistance or even recourse from the credit card company through that route - if 1855 finally default.
#19
27 Oct 2008, 23:40
joost van gelder, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 52
yes this is about 1855.com....
thanks
still no answer or respond to any emails....
#20
28 Oct 2008, 09:04
Andrew Matthews, norwich
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
Nigel's point is a good one but the relevant legislation is unclear as to whether it covers contracts with foreign suppliers. There are a few county court decisions which went in favour of credit card companies where foreign suppliers defaulted on contractual obligations and the buyer tried to use the legislation cover credit card payments. It's all very unsatisfactory from the customers' point of view.
28 Oct 2008, 10:25
joost van gelder, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 52
ooooooh, the number of Jonathan worked. From my hotelroom in Buenos Aires I made a long tel call with the manager. Who explained that 1855 basically has problems with the UK CUSTOMS...... she promised me she would look into the matter and will get back to me as soon as possible....
I think (hopefully) mentioning lawyers and website forums might have helped.... thanks for all the great advice and I will keep you posted on the saga....
thanks
might have a restrained malbec tonight..
#22
26 Novembre 2008
Jim C, London
Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 39
A little update:
I still have Lynch Bages, Leoville Barton, Du Tertre and Moulin St Georges outstanding and was assured these would be delivered at the end of November. So I've been pestering 1855 to confirm this while slowly loosing my rag with their quite obvious avoidance tactics. The long and short of it is that the wines are NOT on their way. All I managed to prise out of them was a pitiful email attempting to explain the situation (see below) Personally I think it's utter hogwash. I don't believe they've got the wines at all. What's more I think it likely they've oversold their allocation resulting in an expensive shortfall.
Does anyone fancy a trip to storm the Bastille in Paris...and maybe a drive to Bordeaux. I wouldn't mind turning up at Lynch Bages with my invoice. Not that it's their fault of course. In fact I do fancy emailing the chateau direct just to let them know what an appalling company 1855.com are turning out to be.
Yours with crossed fingers.
jim
Dear Client,
The Bordeaux Futures 2005 deliveries have started in June as announced by our company and several thousands of our clients have already had the pleasure to receive these excellent wines in their own cellar.
Unfortunately, we have had a few weeks of delay in the delivery of these Futures 2005, which has been inconvenient and irritating for some of our clients.
What are the reasons for these delays?
In order to aknowledge the high increase of activity of 1855 these last few years - almost 50,000 clients today- we have settled a new logistics platform in Bordeaux dedicated to the Futures 2005 deliveries (storage, shipping...).
The set-up of this new platform was slower and its productivity lower than expected. As a result, the reception of the wines from the Domaines and Châteaux has been delayed, and so were the shipping and deliveries.
Our teams work 6 days a week very hard in order to accelerate the deliveries of the Futures 2005, that should take up to the end of the year. To accelerate the delivery flux, we have put in place extra deliveries with the wines that have already arrived on our platform, with no additional costs for our clients.
In order to compensate for the delay towards our loyal clients, we have the pleasure of offering you a 50,00 discount already available on your 1855.com account, and that you can use for your next purchase.
Sincerely,
#23
26 November 2008, 23:04
Andrew Matthews, norwich
Senior Member Join date: Sep 2008
Posts: 131
Jim
If you want to get your wine from 1855.com and plan to get it by storming the Bastille take a guillotine with you. They may get the message if you arrive on their doorstep as a Saint-Just lookalike.